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Author	Topic: Flex Fuel conversions are working better than factory FFVs... Why?	Post a Reply Back to Topics

JonnyEnergyE85 Rookie Author Illinois Posts:32 Points:720 Joined:Mar 2012	Message Posted: Apr 11, 2012 9:30:33 AM Ignore JonnyEnergyE85 Report Abuse Very simple, factory FFVs are using an additional sensor to detect alcohol in the fuel and in turn it adds way more fuel then needed. (Because they pay attention to the BTU crap and not chemistry). In essence the factory programs are running rich. In turn, our e85 conversion kit adds more fuel and the vehicle's ecu uses the oxygen sensor to detect O2 in the fuel. The computer adjusts accordingly and runs the engine at an ideal rich/lean setting.

JonnyEnergyE85

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Illinois

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Message Posted: Apr 11, 2012 9:30:33 AM

Ignore JonnyEnergyE85 Report Abuse

Very simple, factory FFVs are using an additional sensor to detect alcohol in the fuel and in turn it adds way more fuel then needed. (Because they pay attention to the BTU crap and not chemistry). In essence the factory programs are running rich. In turn, our e85 conversion kit adds more fuel and the vehicle's ecu uses the oxygen sensor to detect O2 in the fuel. The computer adjusts accordingly and runs the engine at an ideal rich/lean setting.

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reb4 Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,140 Points:1,824,300 Joined:Sep 2004	Message Posted: Jun 21, 2012 7:17:08 AM Ignore reb4 Report Abuse goldseeker, every station within 100 miles of chicago has ethanol as well... but you keep going around in circles with your arguements... you certainly have convinced yourself.
goldseeker Champion Author West Virginia Posts:19,573 Points:2,721,740 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Jun 21, 2012 6:30:02 AM Ignore goldseeker Report Abuse There is a huge difference in Brazil. Every station has ethanol. Currently it is between 18 and 100 percent. And spin, coming from an armchair expert, does not impress me much.
jenksjr All-Star Author Washington Posts:502 Points:36,275 Joined:Oct 2009	Message Posted: Jun 20, 2012 7:50:53 PM Ignore jenksjr Report Abuse 2
reb4 Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,140 Points:1,824,300 Joined:Sep 2004	Message Posted: Jun 20, 2012 6:56:37 PM Ignore reb4 Report Abuse goldseeker, In 2010, 2.65 Million Barrels oil used per year... Brazil energy information (February 2012)... in 2010, they produced 500K Barrels of ethanol a day... But Brazil consumed 2,029,000 Barrels oil per day... But loving your spins, its great enjoyment for me... And I can understand the confusion, I thought Brazil used majority of ethanol, but I guess not...
goldseeker Champion Author West Virginia Posts:19,573 Points:2,721,740 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Jun 20, 2012 1:33:47 PM Ignore goldseeker Report Abuse "I know at one time, probably 20 years ago pure ethanol was pretty much all you get and the government subsidized it so it sold for the equivalent of 10 cents a gallon. But things have changed I'm sure." Huh! Did you just make this up?"I think brazil still uses lots of oil... thought they do require and only offer ethanol at 10 - 30%, and yes they offer some at higher levels 85 99% they are by no means ethanol based..." Sheesh! The armchair experts are at it again. Now for some real facts on Brazilian ethanol. Brazil is considered to have the world's first sustainable biofuels economy and the biofuel industry leader, a policy model for other countries; and its sugarcane ethanol the most successful alternative fuel to date. There are no longer any light vehicles in Brazil running on just gasoline. Since 1976 the government made it mandatory to blend anhydrous ethanol with gasoline, fluctuating between 10% to 22%. and requiring just a minor adjustment on regular gasoline engines. In 1993 the mandatory blend was fixed by law at 22% anhydrous ethanol (E22) by volume in the entire country, but with leeway to the Executive to set different percentages of ethanol within pre-established boundaries. In 2003 these limits were set at a minimum of 20% and a maximum of 25%. Since July 1, 2007 the mandatory blend is 25% of anhydrous ethanol and 75% gasoline or E25 blend. The lower limit was reduced to 18% in April 2011 due to recurring ethanol supply shortages and high prices that take place between harvest seasons. The Brazilian car manufacturing industry developed flexible-fuel vehicles that can run on any proportion of gasoline (E20-E25 blend) and hydrous ethanol (E100). Introduced in the market in 2003, flex vehicles became a commercial success, reaching a record 92.3% share of all new cars and light vehicle sales for 2009. By December 2009 they represented 39% of Brazil's registered Otto cycle light motor vehicle fleet, and the cumulative production of flex-fuel cars and light commercial vehicles reached the milestone of 10 million vehicles in March 2010, and 15.3 million units by March 2012. By mid 2010 there were 70 flex models available in the market manufactured from 11 major carmakers. The success of "flex" vehicles, together with the mandatory E25 blend throughout the country, allowed ethanol fuel consumption in the country to achieve a 50% market share of the gasoline-powered fleet in February 2008.Flexible fuel cars were 22% of the car sales in 2004, 73% in 2005, 87.6% in July 2008, and reached a record 94% in August 2009. The cumulative production of flex-fuel cars and light commercial vehicles reached the milestone of 10 million vehicles in March 2010, and 15.3 million units by March 2012. The rapid adoption and commercial success of "flex" vehicles, as they are popularly known, together with the mandatory blend of alcohol with gasoline as E25 fuel, have increased ethanol consumption up to the point that by February 2008 a landmark in ethanol consumption was achieved when ethanol retail sales surpassed the 50% market share of the gasoline-powered fleet. This level of ethanol fuel consumption had not been reached since the end of the 1980s, at the peak of the Pró-Álcool Program. From 1979 until December 2010, Brazil has substituted more than 18 million pure gasoline-powered vehicles with 5.7 million neat ethanol vehicles, almost 12 million flex-fuel light vehicles, and 515.7 thousand flex-fuel motorcycles. The number of neat ethanol vehicles still in use is estimated between 2 to 3 million vehicles. Flex-fueled motorcycles? Yep, that is right. Wonder if they have flex-fueled lawn mowers? Oh that is right, according to the "armchair experts" in here small engines will not run on ethanol. Under the auspices of the BioEthanol for Sustainable Transport (BEST) project, the first ethanol-powered (ED95) bus began operations in São Paulo city on December 2007 as a one-year trial project. A second ED95 trial bus began operating in São Paulo city in November 2009. Based on the satisfactory results obtained during the 3-year trial operation of the two buses, in November 2010 the municipal government of São Paulo city signed an agreement with UNICA, Cosan, Scania and Viação Metropolitana", the local bus operator, to introduced a fleet of 50 ethanol-powered ED95 buses by May 2011. The local government objective is for the city's entire bus fleet, which is made of 15,000 diesel-powered buses, to use only renewable fuels by 2018. The first ethanol-powered buses were delivered in May 2011, and the 50 ethanol-powered ED95 buses are scheduled to begin regular service in São Paulo in June 2011. As I recall Sweden also uses ethanol powered buses.
saluki2011 Sophomore Author Florida Posts:110 Points:309,185 Joined:Sep 2011	Message Posted: Jun 20, 2012 12:19:02 PM Ignore saluki2011 Report Abuse I know at one time, probably 20 years ago pure ethanol was pretty much all you get and the government subsidized it so it sold for the equivalent of 10 cents a gallon. But things have changed I'm sure. Thanks for the update.
saluki2011 Sophomore Author Florida Posts:110 Points:309,185 Joined:Sep 2011	Message Posted: Jun 20, 2012 12:12:06 PM Ignore saluki2011 Report Abuse Up to 10% Ethanol. On the pumps it says up to 10% ethanol. Is it usually 10% or some lower figure. If it is true that pure ethanol gets 50% less gas mpg then a vehicle that gets 25mpg on pure gas (0% ethanol)would get 5% less mpg on 10% ethanol, or 23.75 mpg. Around here non ethanol 87 octane costs ruffly 10% more then the 10% ethanol gas. Pay 10% more for a 5% increase in mileage. There are other benefits to running pure gas or so I've heard.
reb4 Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,140 Points:1,824,300 Joined:Sep 2004	Message Posted: Jun 20, 2012 11:54:27 AM Ignore reb4 Report Abuse I think brazil still uses lots of oil... thought they do require and only offer ethanol at 10 - 30%, and yes they offer some at higher levels 85 99% they are by no means ethanol based...
saluki2011 Sophomore Author Florida Posts:110 Points:309,185 Joined:Sep 2011	Message Posted: Jun 20, 2012 11:35:24 AM Ignore saluki2011 Report Abuse I think Brazil is still selling ethanol and only ethanol. Ethanol cuts your mpg/lpg in half. Brazil was one of the last countries to stop manufacture the old stile VW bug but Mexico was the last when the plant in Puebla, Mexaco stopped July 30, 2003. That plant still continued to make newer style Volkswagen cars. I had 24 air cooled VW's from the time I was 15½ when I got my first.
SilverStreaker Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:11,949 Points:2,218,490 Joined:Mar 2006	Message Posted: Jun 20, 2012 11:07:03 AM Ignore SilverStreaker Report Abuse GrumpyCat claims "your aftermarket kit does not run the mixture required to meet emissions regulations" Prove it.
GrumpyCat Champion Author Alabama Posts:2,624 Points:791,735 Joined:Jun 2009	Message Posted: Jun 20, 2012 9:08:58 AM Ignore GrumpyCat Report Abuse In short if what is claimed is true, the factory does what it has to to meet EPA regulations and your aftermarket kit does not run the mixture required to meet emissions regulations. In other words, your kit is illegal. Glad we settled that issue.
reb4 Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,140 Points:1,824,300 Joined:Sep 2004	Message Posted: Jun 20, 2012 7:20:43 AM Ignore reb4 Report Abuse As far as oil companies spending "billions" and for them buying congress as has been claimed... 1. then why is there a mandate for ethanol?
goldseeker Champion Author West Virginia Posts:19,573 Points:2,721,740 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Jun 20, 2012 7:01:28 AM Ignore goldseeker Report Abuse Real simple. If gasoline was anywhere near as good as everyone says it is, they (oil companies) would have never had to spend billions on their propaganda war, and also to buy all members of Congress.
tattoo666TX Champion Author Texas Posts:2,567 Points:344,480 Joined:May 2011	Message Posted: Jun 20, 2012 12:33:44 AM Ignore tattoo666TX Report Abuse Real simple. If ethanol was anywhere near as good as everyone says it is, they would have never needed any mandates and the government would not have had to spend money to get farmers/producers to get the ethanol.
Shockjock1961 Champion Author Illinois Posts:20,143 Points:2,187,110 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: Jun 19, 2012 10:31:28 PM Ignore Shockjock1961 Report Abuse "Shocky's logic spun a different direction" LOL! SPIN being the operative word!
SilverStreaker Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:11,949 Points:2,218,490 Joined:Mar 2006	Message Posted: Jun 19, 2012 7:43:46 PM Ignore SilverStreaker Report Abuse Shocky's logic spun a different direction: If gasoline was all that the petroleum crew claim it's cracked up to be, then gasoline producers would not be so dependent on coal and nuclear.
reb4 Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,140 Points:1,824,300 Joined:Sep 2004	Message Posted: Jun 19, 2012 6:07:14 PM Ignore reb4 Report Abuse hanie59, you are so funny... don't blow a gasket and be careful when you "splash" blend your korean vehicles...
tropicalmn Sophomore Author Minnesota Posts:173 Points:146,135 Joined:Mar 2011	Message Posted: Jun 19, 2012 4:33:13 PM Ignore tropicalmn Report Abuse "Lousy attempt at spin BTW." Hello Pot, Kettle Black!
Shockjock1961 Champion Author Illinois Posts:20,143 Points:2,187,110 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: Jun 19, 2012 3:57:23 PM Ignore Shockjock1961 Report Abuse "Apparently because all corn farmers and ethanol producers don’t drive Toyota Prius’s corn farmers and ethanol producers use to much gas & diesel" Hmmmm.... Where did I say that? Lousy attempt at spin BTW. Far to transparent... [Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 6/19/2012 4:59:10 PM EST]
tropicalmn Sophomore Author Minnesota Posts:173 Points:146,135 Joined:Mar 2011	Message Posted: Jun 19, 2012 3:22:45 PM Ignore tropicalmn Report Abuse Another example of Einstein’s idiotic arguments. Apparently because all corn farmers and ethanol producers don’t drive Toyota Prius’s corn farmers and ethanol producers use to much gas & diesel. It'a a pretty ridicules concept..... [Edited by: tropicalmn at 6/19/2012 4:23:50 PM EST]
Shockjock1961 Champion Author Illinois Posts:20,143 Points:2,187,110 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: Jun 19, 2012 2:53:31 PM Ignore Shockjock1961 Report Abuse If ethanol were all that the ethanol crew claim it's cracked up to be, then corn farmers and ethanol producers would not be so dependent on gasoline and diesel, and the government wouldn't have to mandate the use of ethanol... It'a a pretty simple concept... [Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 6/19/2012 3:55:37 PM EST]
Hannie59 All-Star Author Appleton Posts:592 Points:15,765 Joined:Apr 2010	Message Posted: Jun 16, 2012 11:53:13 AM Ignore Hannie59 Report Abuse The folks mentioned below claim to want choice, spin ethanol as a government boondoggle. They say that they don't want big government. The fact is they want oil-lobby controlled government. They want you to fear an excellent clean burning fuel that is good for your car's engine, the environment, and the nation. They use fear mongering and oil subsidized pseudo studies to TRY to make you believe that this fuel is bad. Don't be fooled, stand up to the propaganda. YOU HAVE A CHOICE! [Edited by: Hannie59 at 6/16/2012 12:57:52 PM EST]
Hannie59 All-Star Author Appleton Posts:592 Points:15,765 Joined:Apr 2010	Message Posted: Jun 16, 2012 11:44:51 AM Ignore Hannie59 Report Abuse LMAO Shokjock, reb4, antiguzzle, and redrider are the most shameful promoters of false, manufactured non facts here. They accuse others of promotion? Riiiiighhht [Edited by: Hannie59 at 6/16/2012 12:47:23 PM EST]
reb4 Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,140 Points:1,824,300 Joined:Sep 2004	Message Posted: Jun 16, 2012 9:46:47 AM Ignore reb4 Report Abuse ethanolbob, that's funny, but most of the fuel efficient vehicles are not ffv.. chevy cruze, chevy volt, odd huh...
ethanolbob All-Star Author Maryland Posts:716 Points:137,325 Joined:Aug 2007	Message Posted: Jun 16, 2012 9:16:29 AM Ignore ethanolbob Report Abuse Could it be that government doesn't want the industry to produce high mileage cars, even cars running on E85?
reb4 Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,140 Points:1,824,300 Joined:Sep 2004	Message Posted: Apr 12, 2012 12:11:13 PM Ignore reb4 Report Abuse krzysiek_ck, for once you answere a question with an actual answer. Thanks. Of course you still accuse me of getting compensated from a study ... so might as well give you some more ammunition... Though I have told you repeatedly I do not get compensated financially in any way for the study, though I do get a smile from your accusations that i do.. gamechanger2011, thanks for your 2 cents... though I would rather have the actual 2 pennies...
gamechanger2011 Champion Author Wichita Posts:1,549 Points:54,690 Joined:Jun 2011	Message Posted: Apr 12, 2012 11:40:18 AM Ignore gamechanger2011 Report Abuse Reb4...once again...stop....you are looking childish. Quit trying to find someone that is breaking a rule. It's a waste of everyone's time.
krzysiek_ck Champion Author Illinois Posts:5,338 Points:731,085 Joined:Apr 2011	Message Posted: Apr 12, 2012 8:50:18 AM Ignore krzysiek_ck Report Abuse reb4 wrote: "Are you promoting kits so you get your car coverted for a discount?" So you concur, but not answering the question, that you are indeed receiving monetary kickbacks from the paid content you are promoting. That is what I thought. To answer your question, I do not own any stocks in Dutch firm Green Fuel Systems. I don't even know if this is a private or public company/corporation. I was not offered any monetary value for providing the link on this form. The link was only used to prove, again, that the Anti-Ethanol crowd is spreading spins, half-truths, and lies.
reb4 Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,140 Points:1,824,300 Joined:Sep 2004	Message Posted: Apr 12, 2012 8:36:57 AM Ignore reb4 Report Abuse krzysiek_ck, you call me out when in the posting in another JohnnyEnergyE85 topic, you promote e85 conversion kits for toyota Prius (haha)... "Topic: BTU's are 35% less for Ethanol but we are not heating water..." "Message Posted: Apr 11, 2012 10:51:17 AM - krzysiek_ck GrumpyCat wrote: "And Prius will NOT run on E85." Are you sure? Can A Toyota Prius run on e85 ? Sure can Flex-Fuel Kits Convert Toyota Prius to E85 Ethanol (For Less Than $1000)" Are you promoting kits so you get your car coverted for a discount?
krzysiek_ck Champion Author Illinois Posts:5,338 Points:731,085 Joined:Apr 2011	Message Posted: Apr 12, 2012 7:50:51 AM Ignore krzysiek_ck Report Abuse reb4 wrote: "gamechanger2011, hows the sale of dvd's you've promoted?" How are your monetary kickbacks from promoting paid content?
gamechanger2011 Champion Author Wichita Posts:1,549 Points:54,690 Joined:Jun 2011	Message Posted: Apr 12, 2012 3:12:23 AM Ignore gamechanger2011 Report Abuse Reb4....I have no idea as I have nothing to gain by doing so! Me recommending a DVD, is NOT advertising. That's absurd! Once again this turning into childish banter. Was I advertising the movie "Groundhog Day" because I mentioned it in a thread? It's a great movie, and many times this silly forum turns into "Groundhog Day." Day after day, the same nonsense...over and over again! I'm going to use a phrase that you are familiar with "take a hike"! [Edited by: gamechanger2011 at 4/12/2012 4:17:37 AM EST]
reb4 Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,140 Points:1,824,300 Joined:Sep 2004	Message Posted: Apr 11, 2012 10:47:52 PM Ignore reb4 Report Abuse gamechanger2011, hows the sale of dvd's you've promoted?
gamechanger2011 Champion Author Wichita Posts:1,549 Points:54,690 Joined:Jun 2011	Message Posted: Apr 11, 2012 8:41:22 PM Ignore gamechanger2011 Report Abuse If anything...I think that Antiguzzle has done more promoting for the Conoco on Greenwhich that, as he puts it has.....NO ETHANOL!!!!! As a matter of fact Reb4 has been trying to figure out our locations and I never tell him where they are. I think he'd back me up on that. So how am I promoting when I won't give our locations on this sight? [Edited by: gamechanger2011 at 4/11/2012 9:44:02 PM EST]
gamechanger2011 Champion Author Wichita Posts:1,549 Points:54,690 Joined:Jun 2011	Message Posted: Apr 11, 2012 8:29:29 PM Ignore gamechanger2011 Report Abuse Redrider....not promoting. I never gave a location. This is a forum about ethanol. Blender pumps will probably be mentioned. The only way to carry E15 is with blender pumps. If talking about blender pumps offends you then maybe this isn't your forum.
jamieg2012 Veteran Author Sioux Falls Posts:286 Points:11,385 Joined:Jan 2012	Message Posted: Apr 11, 2012 8:04:57 PM Ignore jamieg2012 Report Abuse seems some people have trouble with the difference between selling and telling facts based on experience
RedRider1OK All-Star Author Oklahoma City Posts:943 Points:25,440 Joined:Mar 2008	Message Posted: Apr 11, 2012 6:44:38 PM Ignore RedRider1OK Report Abuse Antiguzzle, Seems like there's another poster in here that is also trying to promote his ethanol blended pumps in Wichita, KS. I was thinking there is something in the forum rules against such a thing. Oh well, let them promote and sell. What are rules for anyway.
antiguzzle Sophomore Author Wichita Posts:237 Points:20,545 Joined:Mar 2012	Message Posted: Apr 11, 2012 12:15:45 PM Ignore antiguzzle Report Abuse Jonny's trying to run a business in here guys. Leave him alone.
jamieg2012 Veteran Author Sioux Falls Posts:286 Points:11,385 Joined:Jan 2012	Message Posted: Apr 11, 2012 12:14:07 PM Ignore jamieg2012 Report Abuse just message me when you start making a kit for the 1.6l automatic 2012 kia soul
Shockjock1961 Champion Author Illinois Posts:20,143 Points:2,187,110 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: Apr 11, 2012 9:52:43 AM Ignore Shockjock1961 Report Abuse That makes absolutely no sense. There are oxygen sensors, both before and after the catalytic convertor, in FFV's... Sounds like nothing more then a snake oil sales pitch... [Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 4/11/2012 10:53:46 AM EST]
gamechanger2011 Champion Author Wichita Posts:1,549 Points:54,690 Joined:Jun 2011	Message Posted: Apr 11, 2012 9:41:57 AM Ignore gamechanger2011 Report Abuse That makes sense JonnyE. Thanks for this post.